tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post815933644516658412..comments2023-09-20T17:55:43.908-05:00Comments on BookLust: For Discussion: Racism in Fantasy & Its Effects on People of ColorAartihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-15714846454437033362022-07-15T23:53:00.160-05:002022-07-15T23:53:00.160-05:00Its 2022 now and I Googled: Is Joe Abercrombie rac...Its 2022 now and I Googled: Is Joe Abercrombie racist? This post came up first. Now, in the future, Last Argument of Kings has been published. I hope when you update your excellent criticism, you would frankly say, yes, he's a racist. Angland is England and Gurkish is Turkish. So many deliberate references to skin color, the pinks and the browns. "The brown men watched them, staring and trembling, their mouths and eyes wide open." Reminiscent of early Tin Tin Africans, the marginal flat depiction of non characters. I regret spending money on this garbage and giving him the benefit of the doubt until the middle of the third book. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-38608304199631380172017-08-06T12:06:55.765-05:002017-08-06T12:06:55.765-05:00Incredibly insightful and depressingly necessary. ...Incredibly insightful and depressingly necessary. Zamfeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02978395920563721867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-46275684896561939982013-09-13T11:30:32.182-05:002013-09-13T11:30:32.182-05:00You're right. Cara's comment was pretty r...You're right. Cara's comment was pretty rough.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-44995915037095358002013-09-13T11:29:40.315-05:002013-09-13T11:29:40.315-05:00Thank you so much for your comment. It takes a lo...Thank you so much for your comment. It takes a lot of courage to say something like that. I think if you are aware enough to be struggling with your own biases and those of the people around you, then you are on a good path. And as you continue to grow as a person, I think you'll find that you will seek out experiences that make you more well-rounded. Obviously, we can't all get rid of all of our biases, but we can work really hard to be aware of them and fight against them when we have the opportunity.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-23585554792562528112013-09-13T11:27:43.550-05:002013-09-13T11:27:43.550-05:00No offense, but I think you are entirely missing t...No offense, but I think you are entirely missing the point. You act as though it's so easy for minorities to write stories and then get those stories published and then get the support from publishers to market the stories so that they succeed and more can be written. That's a lot of hurdles to jump over. It's not like they are not "stepping up" to write.<br /><br />When you don't mention the skin color of your characters, people will assume they are white.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-67249335649923885502013-09-10T11:11:14.852-05:002013-09-10T11:11:14.852-05:00When it comes to writing fantasy I have to say tha...When it comes to writing fantasy I have to say that the minorities have to take up the mantle and write more fantasy. I’m a white girl trying to write a story. I’m going to use european mythology, because I’ve familiar with it, it inspires me, and I’m concerned someone will accuse me of misrepresenting their culture. I am not deliberately going to say all my characters are black, because I don’t want people saying I’m trying to whitewash blacks and I have a mental image of most of my characters. My concession is I’m not going to tell the skin color of my characters. Readers can decide for themselves.<br />Minorities should have more representation in fantasy. They should step up and write fantasies inspired by various heritages. I am not going to offend someone by trying to do it for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-74660945091504708012013-08-23T20:18:57.084-05:002013-08-23T20:18:57.084-05:00I...I just on one hand feel really deeply about th...I...I just on one hand feel really deeply about this problem and still I feel powerless to do anything about it in a way.<br />I live in a city with a highly popular international university and in a part of that city where a lot of these students live. It's still a predominantely white society but it's not as bad as it could be I guess.<br />Point is though where I'm from racist is so easily a word used for bullying. Or lightly thrown around sort of like nazi even though it's a highly powerful term.<br />I feel like I'm racist just talking about it but in the end it feels like it's true. It's not about who feels worse about it I just feel like I can't hold it in anymore because normally I am not allowed to discuss racism since I'm white and therefore not affected by it.<br />I am not allowed to say, in public how much I love my country because of how easily I can be called racist for it, even as a joke it hurts.<br />It has meant that I have been repeatedly told to walk on eggshells around people of a different skin colour for a fear that I'll unbeknowst be perceived as racist, called out and that it'll stick with me for a long time "there goes that racist" and I've taken to it because I know how uncomfortable I get when some of my older relatives go on a tirade about 'those blacks' or similar things.<br />And that a slang word for my countrymen has become almost synonymous with racist isn't helping.<br />In the end the racism is still bad and my fear isn't helping but in the end what'll I do?<br />Even asking poses the danger of being called the worst word I could possibly imagine being called. Whith all other forms of social behaviour it's just a matter of trial end error but doing something that's perceived as racism feels like it sticks, you can't better yourself from it, you were just raised that way and it doesn't matter you're a lost cause anyways.<br />This fear is a bit irrational. This is just something that's developed over recent years as I've read more and more of these kinds of texts over the internet. I've cried over a lot of them too out of sheer unjustified guilt.<br />I feel like I should be ashamed of my colour, and my country and its history and I often wish I wasn't white. If not for anything else at least so I could join this debate without the sneers I imagine I'd get.<br />Even one of my relatives when I talked about a text that upset me said: "What ethnicity is the author? Cuz if they're white then it's probably just some overreactive bullshit that's not even supported by real ethnics." and that sort of mirrors how I feel about my own struggle to counter any racism, and a reason why I feel like I can't.<br /><br />Sorry about the wall of text.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-17266096190511984312011-10-12T13:07:06.151-05:002011-10-12T13:07:06.151-05:00Hi, thanks for the article. I'm a little annoy...Hi, thanks for the article. I'm a little annoyed by people suggesting that fantasy has to be based in some culture that exists or existed. What happened to imagination? I agree that there has been a "Colonial Rape" and serious retardation of imagination in fantasy and science fiction, everyone seems to be copying everyone else after Tolkien. You can just look for images of barbarians and this or that and you'll find the same images across different video games and book covers. It is like nobody has any imagination. It annoyed me so much to hear people saying write something about Indian culture. Yeah, sure, if you want to, but why not actually invent something? Why base a story on Hanuman when thats been done before, yet people arent familiar with it so much these days. Why does something have to look like a culture that exists or existed. Why is it called fantasy if there is nothing new and fantastic in it? Why is it always brave forces of "light" against "evil" forced of "darkness"? Can't anyone make something unique? The neo-romantic mind-rape goes beyond racism, into an annoying philosophy that has also been "done to death".<br /><br />No offense, but Cara Powers comment bothered me, and Ursula Le Guins quote where she said "black kids" seemed a little rough actually.<br /><br />Cara said "Think about Hanuman, about Ganesh. Then don't make them look like animals. Shit, maybe I'll have to do it one of these days. But I have my eurocentric first book planned. Write some epic fantasy based in Hinduism. It'll sell. We westerners love us some yoga. We'll love anything that smacks of old India. Write it."<br /><br />I don't know, I thought that was a little rough too. Hanuman and Ganesh are not considered animal joke characters by many Hindus, I thought it was a little disrespectful.<br /><br />I've come to term with the sad reality that many people are just deeply racist and are unwilling to adjust to any other understanding. I think they can change, but they are comfortable in their weird little racist world, and might even make little racist fantasy worlds of entire races of blonde people just to get off.<br /><br />I also call those people insane, and its possible a whole ton of people are insane and getting away with it, thats fine, I'd reccomend moving beyond this "Hero's Journey" garbage and try something so unique that it can't actually be said that you borrowed from any culture. No matter what you do, you'll always be an inferior "darky" to some. Your life shouldn't be about earning their respect or approval, because it might not be possible nor is it worth anything.<br /><br />Anything "ethnic" will be viewed as an "ethnic story" and "oh of course it is ethnic, it was made by an ethnic person".<br /><br />My reccomendation is to seriously think about all the tropes and repeated themes and racism and junk that is flooding the market, and making something that makes sure not to fall into any of those traps, including anti heroes, heroes, good vs evil, race vs race, conflict between two forces, or any of the oft repeated storylines done by every fantasy book. <br /><br />What is the point of creating something done a zillion times and making all the same characters wear different clothes?<br /><br />Freeing oneself from the Colonial Mind does not come only from finding some pride in ancient heritage, but realizing the lies behind Eurocentric fantasy, and not just making an "ethnocentric" fantasy as it would surely be viewed by the racists, but making something so mind blowingly different that people from anywhere can appreciate it in their revolt against the dead horse of eurocentric literature and the philosophies behind most fantasy stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-4185500609512824972010-01-26T09:51:10.280-06:002010-01-26T09:51:10.280-06:00Yazzy- Yes, I think it was fairly clear he meant M...Yazzy- Yes, I think it was fairly clear he meant Muslims. I was annoyed, too. Enough to write this post, I guess!<br /><br />Memory- Thank you :-) That means a lot as I so love your blog.<br /><br />Rebecca- Ditto to you, my message to Memory.<br /><br />Teddy Rose- Yes, I think it's so easy to say things, but it's harder to follow through. Maybe your mom was trying really hard but just didn't make it the WHOLE way over racism. When you consider how deeply ingrained it was (and is), it's hard to expect people to change so quickly. At least now you are able to see your mom's weaknesses and try to make up for them.<br /><br />And WTF is right!Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-90457711260144943712010-01-26T01:00:19.247-06:002010-01-26T01:00:19.247-06:00Wonderful post Aarti! I've stayed quite on th...Wonderful post Aarti! I've stayed quite on the subject but will chime in now. I am white and I know that white privilege does exist! Just one example is the dark maid who worked in our household. My mom was quite nice to her to her face but use to make jokes about her to her white friend that she played cards with weekly. No, we didn't live in the south but white privilege was and still is alive in the north as well. It's funny because my mom talked to me about racism and told me that white and black people, just the same. However, she didn't walk the talk. In fact, she hated it when I made friend with black kids. I love my mom but I really resent her for those things.<br /><br />As for a white girl on the cover of a book about a darked skin girl. WTF (excuse my language) but the people who decided to do that aught to be ashasmed! Shame, Shame!Teddy Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16145413222317511542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-21102779792389904712010-01-25T07:16:39.311-06:002010-01-25T07:16:39.311-06:00Oh thanks for this post! I don't read much fan...Oh thanks for this post! I don't read much fantasy but I love what you've taught me here. <br /><br />"I want them to dream in color."<br /><br />Of course!Rebecca Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06062252252301802298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-71386577114956702512010-01-24T14:11:31.084-06:002010-01-24T14:11:31.084-06:00I want to stand up and applaud you. Such a wonderf...I want to stand up and applaud you. Such a wonderful post. I haven't much more to add, but I love that you wrote this.Memoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922151273874989122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-46212445860705490782010-01-24T11:02:34.588-06:002010-01-24T11:02:34.588-06:00I don't really read epic-fantasy novels too mu...I don't really read epic-fantasy novels too much. However when you did mention the Gurkish in the book by Abercrombie I also believed he meant muslims which irritated me.○☆yazzy.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10506492469385568963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-87559474376654217812010-01-22T15:23:52.069-06:002010-01-22T15:23:52.069-06:00Anna- that is mean of people to call you. I think...Anna- that is mean of people to call you. I think whites get a lot of reverse discrimination but can't really say anything about it because of all the history, which is unfair.<br /><br />Jodie- I am starting to see more Asian fantasy, too! I hope that continues and spreads across the rest of the world's mythology, too!<br /><br />Zibilee- Wow, that is fantastic! I can't believe you and your family did that :-) I want so badly to meet your family- I feel like I know them.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-54842822976339878282010-01-22T15:11:41.979-06:002010-01-22T15:11:41.979-06:00Aarti, I read this post a few days ago, and am bac...Aarti, I read this post a few days ago, and am back now to comment on it. I actually read it out loud to my husband and kids, who are huge fantasy readers, and it sparked a huge dinnertime debate over the fact that minorities are so marginalized and prejudiced in most fantasy novels. Even my husband had to agree that his favorite books suffer from these problems and that he desired to see something different. As a family, we basically agree with everything you said, although you said it with much more eloquence than I ever could. I am right there with you, hoping that things begin to change and that people from other nationalities are regarded with more respect and dignity in fantasy in the future. Your post was just beautiful!Zibileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05857638467064749190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-74155834868764785812010-01-22T15:00:35.753-06:002010-01-22T15:00:35.753-06:00Fantastic post, thanks for sharing so much of your...Fantastic post, thanks for sharing so much of yourself with us. I agree with Nymeth that it's crazy to say fantasy can't be racist because 'it's not real', all fantasy operates as a commentary on our world because it's the only world we and authors operate in, making it impossible to get away from even in fantastical tales. <br /><br />I think I'm starting to see more Asian fantasy slowly turning up, but Indian fantasy published in English is unheard of to me. I did read something recently about how many Indian writers are now choosing to write in Indian languages (and we all know how little translated fiction makes it into the UK and US market) so perhaps there are great Indian fantasy stories being created by Indian writers that we all don't have access to yet. I hope they are out there.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11462660276240016464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-42088643441327161902010-01-22T09:47:29.514-06:002010-01-22T09:47:29.514-06:00What a great post. I don't read epic fantasy,...What a great post. I don't read epic fantasy, but you've given me a lot to think about. <br /><br />I'm white living in a predominantly minority neighborhood, and it hasn't been an easy experience being called "whitey" and other kinds of mean names. I would never think of calling my neighbors names based on their skin color -- I don't even care about their skin color. Heck, if I did, I wouldn't have moved there, right? And I know my experiences pale in comparison to the experiences of people of color, it just makes it so obvious that race continues to be an issue. I don't know how people can act like it's not an issue.<br /><br />Thanks for this food for thought.<br /><br />--Anna<br /><a href="http://diaryofaneccentric.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Diary of an Eccentric</a>Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08046635675540466183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-87807801244866467262010-01-21T20:32:28.120-06:002010-01-21T20:32:28.120-06:00bookmagic- Thank you! I am touched :-)
Vasilly- ...bookmagic- Thank you! I am touched :-)<br /><br />Vasilly- I think your post is wonderful, too. I'm glad we're all making a statement.<br /><br />Ah Yuan- Thank you! I am going to check out your blog, too!Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-10346309513640738782010-01-21T16:41:16.874-06:002010-01-21T16:41:16.874-06:00Oh wow, you hit my feelings about fantasy and the ...Oh wow, you hit my feelings about fantasy and the whole love it but hate it feeling all in this one, beautifully eloquent post. *bookmarks*yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13106464795070487558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-3835883545566571052010-01-21T14:36:24.346-06:002010-01-21T14:36:24.346-06:00OH, I didn't realize the name was "Deepa ...OH, I didn't realize the name was "Deepa D." I think the name was Deepad. I had never heard of that name before, but... how embarrassing! Will change that!Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-70230130983321082532010-01-21T14:35:19.253-06:002010-01-21T14:35:19.253-06:00This is a fantastic post with a lot of food for th...This is a fantastic post with a lot of food for thought.<br /><br />(I'd just like to note that Deepa D. is a woman.)Melnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-78886337740294728702010-01-21T12:51:34.462-06:002010-01-21T12:51:34.462-06:00Aarti, you wrote a beautiful post! Thank you so mu...Aarti, you wrote a beautiful post! Thank you so much for writing about what it's like to read a genre that doesn't include people of color. I think with the Bloomsbury controversy and more people writing about their experiences, the blogisphere is starting to have a great dialogue about race, reading, and representation.<br /><br />I don't read much fantasy or science fiction but I am going to check out all the wonderful authors that hav ebeen recommended in your post and in the comments.Vasillyhttp://classicvasilly.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-75209504360258844782010-01-21T12:10:30.689-06:002010-01-21T12:10:30.689-06:00What a really great post. I think is the most info...What a really great post. I think is the most informative I have read. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and those of other writers. Very thought-provoking. I so agree with the suffering is not a contest mentality<br />I hope someone starts writing the fantasy novels that need to be written.bookmagichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808845291761439603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-24583410888729405502010-01-21T10:08:43.412-06:002010-01-21T10:08:43.412-06:00Thanks so much for those recommendations, Kiirstin...Thanks so much for those recommendations, Kiirstin! I'll keep those in mind for sure!<br /><br />As for your comment on not feeling comfortable- how much do people in 2000 REALLY know about living in Medieval Europe? Maybe a bit, but I assume they do some research. And it's fantasy- you can make things up as you go along, anyway :-) And I agree with you- even if it IS European-based, is it so necessary to make it so obvious that the "enemy" of choice is dark-skinned, and follows a different religion? I think it's just as easy to be the same skin color and follow a different religion. Maybe there's a huge difference between blue-eyed and green-eyed people. Who knows- *I* don't write the stories, I just read them ;-)Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-83095423489303020042010-01-21T08:36:47.029-06:002010-01-21T08:36:47.029-06:00Such a great post, and really interesting comments...Such a great post, and really interesting comments in the discussion. The topic of racism in fantasy is one that I've thought about peripherally for years; it has always bugged me that so often the antagonists' side has a different skin colour than the protagonists'.<br /><br />Robin McKinley's <i>The Blue Sword</i> is really interesting when looked at from a perspective of race and colonialism; if inspected closely, the inspiration for that world seems to be India during the early British colonial era. I'd also really like to see what you have to say about Allison Croggon's books, which include many different races as both protags and antags, and they're epic fantasy.<br /><br />I really enjoy reading fantasy based in other cultures; one of the reasons I like manga so much is that it often draws on traditions I'm not familiar with. I'd love to read more. <br /><br /><i>That said</i> I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel writing something like that myself, as a white Canadian from a very WASP-y background -- things that smack of cultural appropriation make me squirm a little bit too. When entering a fantasy world, readers naturally look for the parallels to the real world. Thus I can say McKinley's Damar is like India, and Croggon's Innail is European, maybe German. I'm not saying that a white fantasy author shouldn't use inspirations from cultures other than their own; I think what I'm trying to say is that the author must have a deep understanding of and respect for the culture they're taking their inspiration from. So perhaps part of the problem is a slew of white fantasy authors who are uncomfortable with using inspiration from cultures that aren't their own.<br /><br />I think I may have veered a little off-topic; there's no suggesting that a European-based epic couldn't have all protagonists with dark skin, either. Skin colour does not a culture make.<br /><br />Okay, self, stop. This comment is long enough.<br /><br />Thanks for offering me the opportunity to think out loud, Aarti!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330550798080469047noreply@blogger.com