tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post5004315691618387468..comments2023-09-20T17:55:43.908-05:00Comments on BookLust: A Rant Against the Perception of Victorian WomenAartihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-13661950832120169072010-01-07T22:19:15.804-06:002010-01-07T22:19:15.804-06:00I like me a good rebellious character, I have to a...I like me a good rebellious character, I have to admit, and I'll even cop to enjoying unrealistically modern characters in historical fiction on occasion, if the writing's engaging. As far as those "rebellious" characters making every other female in the book look bad, that does irritate me. <br /><br />The past, in some respects, wasn't that different than things are today. There are lots of women I meet and see during a regular work week that baffle me with their attitudes and ideas, the same way that I'm sure I baffle (or sadden, or infuriate) them. Attitudes and ideas of what is appropriate behaviour come in all shades of grey, and what I ask for in an historical novel is that those shades of grey are represented, rather than having one vibrantly orange character and the rest black or white.<br /><br />Awesome rant, really made me think. Thank you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330550798080469047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-54015317428844295732010-01-07T18:04:09.929-06:002010-01-07T18:04:09.929-06:00Hilarious and so true! I am going to have to remem...Hilarious and so true! I am going to have to remember to use URF as a descriptive the next time I review an applicable book.Lesleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17573647475203643004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-8996921417141199912010-01-07T07:00:46.770-06:002010-01-07T07:00:46.770-06:00Just to answer your last comment, I think I unders...Just to answer your last comment, I think I understand what you mean. One drawback of contemporary writers setting characters in previous eras is that they attach their own bias to the characters. Hence why the majority of 'Victorian' women are portrayed by default as rebels. As you rightly pointed out, the seeds of the suffrage movement were planted in the Victorian era. The conditions that working class women faced in factories doesn't even bare thinking about. <br /><br />Ah, Mrs Fox. She appears around 200 pages into the book. I can't remember exactly when because I have been scoffing this book down like an extra box of Christmas chocolates!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17684400154894645235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-4113638442700938472010-01-06T18:17:01.874-06:002010-01-06T18:17:01.874-06:00What a GREAT post! I can't comment for or ag...What a GREAT post! I can't comment for or against ('cept maybe I need to read Sarah Waters?)Carehttp://bkclubcare.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-11698455188087137122010-01-06T16:59:17.274-06:002010-01-06T16:59:17.274-06:00Rant on my friend.
For we are living in an age whe...Rant on my friend.<br />For we are living in an age when moral superiority and pious prudence often overruns the good sense of the halfwits who never bothered doing their research before setting pen to paper. I tell you what else I've seen it in novels of the Regency and Edwardian era as well.The romantic query letter and the happy-ever-afterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13382165250238920938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-3292649903176289862010-01-06T10:22:29.925-06:002010-01-06T10:22:29.925-06:00Laughing Stars & A Bookshelf Monstrosity &...Laughing Stars & A Bookshelf Monstrosity &Jenny- Glad to be of assistance :-)<br /><br />Laura & Valerie- But that's what I mean. I don't think Victorian women really WERE that submissive- only that they seem that way to us now because of these annoying women going around doing stupid things like riding a horse crazily around Hyde Park or something.<br /><br />Zibilee- I hope I didn't ruin it for you now!<br /><br />Errant Knave- I haven't really considered that possibility. It might have more to do with a steampunk element, as those girls tend to be super-gutsy and rebellious. Hmm.<br /><br />Jill- Thanks :-)<br /><br />Nicole- Yes, exactly. One need not rebel against the small things, like these heroines do, when the important women are rebelling against BIG things.<br /><br />Cindy- Thanks!<br /><br />Chasing Bawa- I am not saying that people should totally encapsulate a historical period, just that they should write in a way that respects the people of the period. The way these heroines are written, it makes it seem as though no Victorian woman ever *really* wanted her life to be different, which is unfair to all those women who DID spend so much effort trying to make life better for others.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-77276374732729597192010-01-06T09:57:58.712-06:002010-01-06T09:57:58.712-06:00Doesn't it feel good to rant? I've also re...Doesn't it feel good to rant? I've also read a lot of books where I'm not convinced by the treatment of the characters, be it historical or not. <br /><br />But I think it is very difficult to write something that totally encapsulates the historical period/context without bringing something of yourself and your times into it. It's one of the difficulties in writing historical non-fiction as well as fiction. And in any history class it's always drummed into you that you need to leave your modern sensibilities behind when you explore history but I'm not convinced that it's entirely possible. <br /><br />So I think I'll be reading historical fiction with a little pinch of modern until I find the one book that will change my mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-16712009136636743612010-01-06T00:58:23.206-06:002010-01-06T00:58:23.206-06:00Great Post! I enjoyed reading it!Great Post! I enjoyed reading it!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10585134795681216503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-2628138218109616092010-01-06T00:18:47.413-06:002010-01-06T00:18:47.413-06:00I agree whole heartedly. One of the things that I...I agree whole heartedly. One of the things that I enjoyed about reading The House of Moreys last year was that I was always telling the main character what to do and yelling at her in my head , but realizing that she had limited choices for her time and circumstance. Not everyone can burn up the word wearing lace and petticoats.Nicole (Linus's Blanket)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12473607646939202824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-39952923988069104692010-01-05T21:34:59.443-06:002010-01-05T21:34:59.443-06:00No apologies necessary...it's a good thing to ...No apologies necessary...it's a good thing to rant about!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-46608447645607747982010-01-05T20:59:24.230-06:002010-01-05T20:59:24.230-06:00You have a good point...the Anne Perry mysteries t...You have a good point...the Anne Perry mysteries that take place in Victorian England that I've read have female main characters who would be considered "rebels", lol. <br /><br />I'm sure every era has these type of women, but probably not to the degree that modern novelists would like to have us believe.Valeriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10401551604933163595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-64898960305775190862010-01-05T20:20:22.764-06:002010-01-05T20:20:22.764-06:00I haven't read much modern takes on the era. I...I haven't read much modern takes on the era. I guess this is why! I'll stick to the real Victorian women, I think!Rebecca Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06062252252301802298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-30621731791247150942010-01-05T19:58:22.887-06:002010-01-05T19:58:22.887-06:00Love it! I've been wondering lately why I don...Love it! I've been wondering lately why I don't seem to enjoy more fiction set in Victorian times. I have it in my mind that I love a Victorian setting, but I can't think of that many books (apart from Sarah Waters's ones) that I really love. It's the nonfiction about the Victorians that I like best, and I bet this is a factor. I need to start paying better attention!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-47560923785347504992010-01-05T17:45:49.340-06:002010-01-05T17:45:49.340-06:00"If Lady Ashton had existed today, she would ..."If Lady Ashton had existed today, she would be a character on Gossip Girl."<br /><br />I think that's one of the reasons for the character depictions. Maybe writers want the ladies to resonate with modern characters. Maybe they push it a little too far. And maybe it has something to do with Steampunk and the revival of late Victorian sensibilities into our day-to-day lives (even if that only occurs at a superficial level).Errant Knavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06917205011137523305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-54086858569091517992010-01-05T16:45:40.153-06:002010-01-05T16:45:40.153-06:00Wonderful rant! I think that there is a huge gap i...Wonderful rant! I think that there is a huge gap in my reading and I don't have much information on these modern Victorian women that you so feircely dislike, but I can see the point you are making and think that had I read some of these books, I would have to conclude the same. I much prefer characters whose motivations and experiences are firmly rooted in thier times and don't think I would like reading about a Victorian woman with modern sensibilites and modern rebelliousness. I do have And Only to Decieve on my shelf, and have heard good things about it, but I think after reading your review I will be studying it with a much more critical eye.Zibileehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05857638467064749190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-27920573222733252322010-01-05T16:15:12.592-06:002010-01-05T16:15:12.592-06:00They just gallivant all over the place, ignoring t...<i>They just gallivant all over the place, ignoring the system and making their fellow females appear like limp noodles for not going along with their schemes. This is unfair and misleading, and seems to ignore the real strides women made in the Victorian era.</i><br /><br />Very well said. I realized as I was reading your post how much these statements and thoughts ring true. Thanks for bringing this to your fellow readers' attentions. And, dear lord, how I need to read Sarah Waters!!!A Bookshelf Monstrosityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14674115889348650429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-80645069266682239702010-01-05T15:49:44.528-06:002010-01-05T15:49:44.528-06:00Aarti, this rant is awesome! I've often thoug...Aarti, this rant is awesome! I've often thought and felt the same way - you've been able to put into words what usually just leaves me grinding my teeth and thinking "yeah....right". While I understand that having a "submissive" main character might not contain the most intriguing plot, there does seem to be an overabundance of URF's on shelves these days. <br /><br />Thanks for ranting on this!Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482900025469696058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-31888713816218974882010-01-05T15:06:57.508-06:002010-01-05T15:06:57.508-06:00This is thought provoking. I haven't read much...This is thought provoking. I haven't read much literature by contemporary writers set in Victorian times. However I agree that many historical novelists have difficulty writing characters that are strong and multi-dimensional without simply lifting them from the 21st century world. It's important to be able to create a strong female character in a multi-layered and *subtle* way, without needing to make her an over-the-top rebel.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06932060902413958983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-36779637216187630852010-01-05T13:51:31.007-06:002010-01-05T13:51:31.007-06:00No, I think you did! It's just me being slow :...No, I think you did! It's just me being slow :PAna S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16092495983972185943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-89684611087523191332010-01-05T13:48:37.656-06:002010-01-05T13:48:37.656-06:00Clearly, I must not present my argument in a way t...Clearly, I must not present my argument in a way that is actually understandable. That tends to happen in a rant. Hmmm... Not sure how to edit it without stealing everyone else's words...Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-66440186456184597622010-01-05T13:47:00.868-06:002010-01-05T13:47:00.868-06:00Okay, now I've read through the comments and r...Okay, now I've read through the comments and read Rachel's review of Dora Damage, and I think we were pretty much saying the same in different ways :P I do agree with you two after all. I guess it's just that the books I've read so far - like Sarah Waters' - present their characters well enough that they don't feel like that much of an exception to the rule. And that's why I love them.Ana S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16092495983972185943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-62580614593178388942010-01-05T13:44:15.798-06:002010-01-05T13:44:15.798-06:00But that's what I mean, Ana. I don't thin...But that's what I mean, Ana. I don't think Victorian women really WERE that passive. I think that the way novels today portray the Unrealistically Rebellious ones makes it SEEM as though all Victorian women were passive, when really they probably were not. I'm sure they all felt the restrictions of their society, so why do these particular types of characters always make it seem like they're the first women to ever be upset by societal restraints?Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-51903530498915905222010-01-05T13:01:20.875-06:002010-01-05T13:01:20.875-06:00I can see how unrealistic modern sensibilities are...I can see how unrealistic modern sensibilities are a bit of a problem with some historical fiction (though I tend to love it anyway). But the reason why those rebellious women don't bother me at all is because I'm not sure if the Passive Victorian Female of our imagination was as predominant as we tend to think. I think the picture we have of the Victorians is only one side of the story. We see the social trends, sure, but we can't know how women felt, hot they acted in their private lives. I suspect that this kind of rebellion was much more common that people would tend to admit back then, and I love historical fiction that explores those gaps.<br /><br />I actually mooched The Journal of Dora Damage recently and I can't wait to read it.Ana S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16092495983972185943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-70676809512968787132010-01-05T09:52:42.411-06:002010-01-05T09:52:42.411-06:00Another Cookie Crumbles- Well, I think books writt...Another Cookie Crumbles- Well, I think books written DURING the Victorian period are quite good, if that means anything to you! Just not most historical fiction for the period.<br /><br />Jade- I read your fascinating review and have been mulling over how to respond to your questions since yesterday. I completely agree with you. There are some people who can change the world by flouting its conventions, but most must work first within the confines.<br /><br />Blodeuedd- Haha, yes maybe they should all go to that world :-)<br /><br />Kay- No, you're definitely not alone! I'm right there with you!<br /><br />Eva- Thanks ;-)<br /><br />Rachel- You put it so well! I completely agree about the working class women, and those seem to be portrayed much more realistically than the upper-class women. I don't know WHY people seem to think upper-class women were such boring idiots in the past. Not all (or even most) women TODAY are boring, so why should they have been so boring in the past? It is just so condescending to make such a blanket statement like that.<br /><br />Corra- Your second statement exactly! As for your first comment, I completely agree that authors don't seem to know very well how women in the period acted. It seems they all just want to transport themselves back to the Victorian era and see how they would have acted. Which is fine in some sort of time travel thing, but NOT in general.<br /><br />A Woman with an Opinion- I don't remember Mrs. Fox at all! I did not finish that book, though :-) I also haven't read the Lolly book, but I don't think Victorian women were exactly "rebels without a cause." I think they did have a lot of really important causes to fight for, and they fought for them passionately. But these authors of female characters in more modern novels, the way they just go riding a horse through a park or acting as though no one else but them reads books... they're completely ignoring the very real struggles Victorian women faced and making it seem as though the only important thing to fight for was their OWN selfish need to be noticed. So THEY are rebels without a cause, but not Victorian women in general.<br /><br />Vivienne- Well, that's one book I will *not* read, then! :-)<br /><br />Chris- Yes, I agree, and you say it so well. I don't think there was a vacuum, either. I think if you wanted to have more rights, then there were things you could do and people who agreed with you. And these characters don't seem to acknowledge that at all.Aartihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02354873119188597611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7343567357202223317.post-34674079055541381232010-01-05T07:46:24.587-06:002010-01-05T07:46:24.587-06:00Ugh, I hate that too! Women in those books always ...Ugh, I hate that too! Women in those books always act so out of character for the times. It's like they were aliens just dropped there one day. <br /><br />I imagine that the ones who were really 'rebellious' weren't living in a vacuum. They would have had some influences and a basis for their beliefs. But the ones in the books always seem to be doing it all on their own.Chrisbookaramahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11972547663609480210noreply@blogger.com